1870 50/70 trapdoor

[Frappy]

Hello everyone, there is what is advertised as a model 1870 trapdoor in my area. I am thinking about buying it. Question.... It has the longer nose on the receiver, wasn't that used on the model 1868 only? The serial number is 25xxx which also tells me it is a 1868 model. The breechblock (trapdoor) is marked model 1870. Where the trapdoors interchangeable for these models?

[Dick Hosmer]

Welcome! You have encountered one of the prime confusions of the era.

The M1868 and the M1870 .50-70s are frequently misidentified.

As you say, the 1868 has the long nose, while the 1870 has the short, just like all following .45-70s. The 52,500 M1868s were dated 1868 (extremely rare) 1869 (less common) and 1870 (far and away the most made). Only about 12,000 M1870s were made, making them more valuable, thus, 1870 dated M1868s are (way too) often described as M1870s, hoping to snag a few more bucks...

The breechblocks will interchange, though the thickness, and arch, differ. All M1868, and early M1870s, lack the word "model". There are also small differences in sights, cleaning rods, etc.

Hope that helps!

[cheap plug here: what you really need is my little 2006 book, "The .58 and .50 Cal Rifles . . ." available at very modest cost on Amazon]

[Hammer]

Yes, Dicks book is Very helpful for the Pre-M1873 Trapdoors!!!

[Frappy]

Thanks for the info.... My assumption might be correct. What I am looking at is a M1868 with a later breach block (it is stamped Model 1870).

[Dick Hosmer]

Thanks for the info.... My assumption might be correct. What I am looking at is a M1868 with a later breach block (it is stamped Model 1870).

Then you are looking at two things: (1) Proof that the blocks DO interchange (several people have said over the years that they do not) and (2) a not-as-made piece; the long noses were long-gone when the "Model" inscription was added. The top surface of M1868 blocks aligns pretty close to the center of the hinge-pin, while M1870 blocks almost align with the lower edge of the pin. This reduced thickness allows the block to open further, lessening the tendency to fall shut in the midst of loading...

[Frappy]

It looks like the block aligns closer to the bottom of the hinge pin than the center. I was told some time ago the blocks weren't interchangeable but... The other red flag for me is the 25,xxx serial number on the receiver and barrel. They didn't make that many model 1870's.

[Dick Hosmer]

It looks like the block aligns closer to the bottom of the hinge pin than the center. I was told some time ago the blocks weren't interchangeable but... The other red flag for me is the 25,xxx serial number on the receiver and barrel. They didn't make that many model 1870's.

Sorry to be blunt, but you don't seem to be paying much attention to what I've tried to tell you? 25,000 is a perfectly reasonable serial for a Model 1868 made in, and dated, 1870 (the third and final year of production for that model). Someone (99.99% odds was NOT SA) has switched blocks on the rifle you are looking at, which is NOT a "Model 1870" - no matter how the block is marked. ALL "Model 1870"s - even the limited production trials rifle and carbine - have SHORT receivers. And, Model 1870s were not serial-numbered - that practice was exclusive to the M1868 rifle and M1869 Cadet.

[Frappy]

I did pay attention to what you said... Read what I said (they didn't make that many model 1870's". Therefore it is probably a M1868 with a M1870 block.

[Bill Faye]

Can you post pictures of the breach block?

[Dick Hosmer]

I did pay attention to what you said... Read what I said (they didn't make that many model 1870's". Therefore it is probably a M1868 with a M1870 block.

Again, my apologies - I guess it was just the way I interpreted your comment- seemed to be going over already-settled ground.

There is no "probably" - it IS an 1868 to which (as the word "model" is present) someone has added a late 1870 block. Easily fixable, since 1870-dated 1868 blocks are common.